Matt & Jenni Holm

ReadKiddoRead: So thanks again, Matt and Jenni Holm, for talking to us on ReadKiddoRead. I’m not sure if you’ve taken a look at the website, but ReadKiddoRead was designed by Patterson as a tool for adults: parents, teachers, grandparents, mentors; anyone who really wants to get kids excited about reading, and the emphasis is on the word “excited.”

Jenni Holm: It’s a great idea.

ReadKiddoRead: Yes. He really wanted to go out there and identify books that really had a lot of traction with these kids and maybe even made kids so excited about reading that they’re deciding to go back for more, his belief being that if the way to get kids excited about reading is to give them books that they’re really going to love. And he has seen it with his own son and like I said, it’s just a personal mission and passion of his and that’s where the website came from. And Babymouse is exactly that. I mean, it’s such a cool, fun concept and really cool-looking, also, and it obviously has gotten a lot of kids excited. So we’re really excited to have you guys, so thank you.

Jenni Holm: No, thank you.

ReadKiddoRead: So, number ten was recently released?

Matt Holm: Yes, finally.

ReadKiddoRead: That’s so exciting! Congratulations. So I guess my first official question will be, tell us a little bit about Babymouse: The Musical.

Jenni Holm: Matt, you go ahead.

ReadKiddoRead: Go.

Matt Holm: Okay, I’ll go. It was spurred by two things. One was the recent rise of High School Musical and that whole craze, but also, just the fact of our growing up in the ’80s when we were surrounded by Broadway musicals. You had Annie. You had Cats. You had Grease. And Jenni, especially, and her whole crowd, used to play it on the old vinyl record in the living room and dance around to it so that was certainly a big part of her growing up and all those songs are stuck in our heads. We wanted to recapture the fun and horror of doing a high school musical, or in this case, an elementary school musical, and turn it into excellent fun, with endless songs, of course.

ReadKiddoRead: Very cool. Now, the whole idea of writing a comic or a graphic novel, did you guys grow up reading them? Was that one of the ways that you got into reading and also into sort of writing?

Jenni Holm: Yes, I would say very much. We’re two of five. There were five kids and I was the only girl with all boys. So I read what the boys would read and they had just tons of comic books lying around. I was always reading them—I didn’t really know any different. I loved them. I wasn’t in love with the heroines of the day, like Wonder Woman and Betty and Veronica. They just kind of didn’t do it for me. And I was always kind of whinging about that. Matt was really the only one who would listen to me. I think it was probably because he and I really shared a passion for comic books and cartoon strips; he actually started doodling comic strips when he was in middle school.

ReadKiddoRead: Oh, cool.

Jenni Holm: Yes.

ReadKiddoRead: Who knew it would turn out to be so wildly successful? I guess you have to go and encourage kids to do their doodles because it might turn into a really, really famous popular kids’ series.

Matt Holm: Definitely. Keep doodling. And don’t listen to your parents.

ReadKiddoRead: That’s great advice. Speaking of doodling, is it true that Babymouse started as a doodle on a napkin? What’s the story there?

Matt Holm: Oh, boy.

Jenni Holm: Yes. Oh, Matt. Oh, Matt. Are you going to tell it?

Matt Holm: I’ll tell it, I guess.

Jenni Holm: Take the blame.

Matt Holm: Here’s the napkin story. So Jenni, of course, had this whole experience growing up and wishing that there were good comic book girl characters out there in the world. And she was living New York and I was in New York and she had just been having a really rotten day one day, at what we now call a typical Babymouse kind of day. She was late for work and she forgot her lunch and it was pouring rain, she got a big puddle splashed on her, all this kind of stuff, and she gets home and she’s stomping around the house. And her husband says to her, “Wow, you are really irritable today!” And Jenni said, “Typical.” It’s a typical kind of day. She was sitting there in her kitchen and she had -- the image of this little mouse just popped into her head and she had a cranky look on her face and big whiskers and hands on her hips but she had a little heart on her dress. And so she scribbled it down on a napkin. And the next time she saw me, she handed me the napkin and said, “Here, we have to make a book. We’ll call it Babymouse.” And I said, “Okay, no problem,” and then I went and did some sketches… and I totally, totally lost the napkin.

ReadKiddoRead: That napkin’s got to be worth something now.

Matt Holm: Oh, you know.

Jenni Holm: He lost the very first drawing. He probably used it.

ReadKiddoRead: So is Babymouse, Jenni, what got you into writing books for kids or did you always want to write for kids? What was your inspiration—because I know you’ve written other books.

Jenni Holm: Yes. I had been writing historical fiction novels. And I think one of the driving reasons behind me wanting to do a graphic novel was that comic books are traditionally aimed at children, and then there was sort of a movement away from them. It was sort of in the ’80s and ’90s when they were written more for adults, actually. When I first moved to New York City, I worked at an animation company and we used to use a lot of freelancers. And the freelancers were typically who would do the style animation—a lot of inkers and painters who would be from the comics when they were off of a job. So I was always surrounded by all these guys, which was really cool.

But then, another thing really struck me, with one of my best friends, who was born in Puerto Rico and then he moved to the Bronx when he was like five or six years old. We met in New York and became fast friends. He told me he had a lot of trouble learning English when he was a kid, moving to a different country. He was convinced that Superman taught him to read, because he said he would read the comic book and he could look at the action and follow the bubbles and follow the arc of the narrative and it taught him to read. So after he said that, I really felt that, in addition to the awesome entertainment value of comics, there’s definitely a literary, educational value that can really help reluctant readers.

ReadKiddoRead: Do you think that they should be taught in schools?

Jenni Holm: I think Matt and I are very pro-comics in the classroom. I think we’re at the beginning. Wwe’re two small voices in the wilderness but there are a lot more voices coming. There are a lot of librarians out there who are seeing the educational value of comic books. And I think something that Matt’s noticed is that, like a Babymouse graphic novel, it’s 96 pages, so a kid can read that and feel super accomplished. It’s almost like they’ve read a real big book but it’s a much lighter experience.

ReadKiddoRead: Sure. It’s not overwhelming, in other words. It’s really a truly enjoyable experience for them.

Jenni Holm: Yes.

Matt Holm: And especially for the kids who are reluctant readers, a lot of times you get grade levels in there, where you’re like, “Okay, well, this is your reading level so you have to read this kind of book,” which, once you get to a certain age, means your peers are reading chapter books and you’re still seeing picture books or something.

ReadKiddoRead: Sure, sure.

Matt Holm: So here is something that’s appropriate to their age. It doesn’t talk down to them. It’s what everyone else their age is thinking about and reading about but it’s a much more accessible format that can get them kick started.

ReadKiddoRead: Sure. Now, it’s clear that girls are crazy about Babymouse. How do the boys feel?

Matt Holm: It’s very funny with the boys. When you first show them the book, if they haven’t heard about it before, they’re like, “I’m not going to read that! It’s all pink!”

ReadKiddoRead: Right, of course.

Matt Holm: Actually, we went out with some friends and we gave some books to their son. At the start of the day (because we were going around on a trip), he said, “Hmm, thanks…” And then a little bit later, his mom would sort of punch him on the shoulder and say, “Go read it! Read it!” And so later in the day, he came up to us and said, “I really have to apologize. I’m sorry. I thought this was like Hello Kitty or something. But when I started reading it, it’s really funny.” So, once the boys start reading it, they really like it. I’m a boy so when I’m drawing the art, I try to always include boy’s stuff that’s going to be interesting. There are giant monsters destroying the school. There are some big ships, superheroes, all kinds of stuff going on.

ReadKiddoRead: A little bit of something for everyone.

Jenni Holm: And we did always like sort of a core boy audience, going to school visits, so much so that Matt has this T-shirt that he wears now that’s pink and says, “It’s not pink. It’s lightish red.”

ReadKiddoRead: That’s really funny. That’s very cool. So in terms of going to schools for these events and being out there in the world of middleschoolers, do you guys have particular suggestions for parents or teachers or your own ideas that you’ve experienced actually work with kids? What are some ways, aside from writing truly awesome comic books, to get kids excited about reading, in your experience?

Matt Holm: I think the big thing is to keep them reading anything. Jenni would always say, when we were kids, we would sit there at breakfast and just read the cereal box. If you just get a habit of reading, it keeps you going.

And it’s important to recognize that even though there are important books that there are to read out there, high literature, for whatever age group it’s going to be, there are times when you just don’t want to read something that heavy. No one is going around scolding adults when they pick up People Magazine every once in a while, saying, “You should be reading Dostoyevsky right now.” Sometimes, you just don’t have that in you. You need to relax and unwind and there are a lot of different kinds of things you can read. And as long as you just keep reading, that’s going to build a habit up.

ReadKiddoRead: Absolutely. Jenni, do you have anything?

Jenni Holm: And I think for parents, the biggest trick is to not necessarily shove it down their throats. Buy a bunch of the graphic novels or books, and get some good recommendations from a librarian or a book seller, and leave them lying around.

ReadKiddoRead: Right, right.

Jenni Holm: Like on the coffee table. And they’ll be picked up just when you least expect it, you know.

ReadKiddoRead: Sure, sure.

Matt Holm: That was a big advantage for me. I was the youngest of the five kids so by the time I came along and was reading, there were just so many books sitting around the house. I would look at them for years and years and years sometimes, and then I’ll be like, “Oh, what is this again?” and then I’ll pick it up and then I would read it. So you have to wait for the right moment.

ReadKiddoRead: Gotcha. Very cool. So how about working together as a brother-sister team? I have a brother, who is twenty months younger than me, and we’ve never actually worked on a project together, but I can only imagine that it must be completely gratifying but also frustrating sometimes?

Matt Holm: A lot of punching actually. No, I think you and your brother are probably too close in age. That would be my guess. There’s a brother between us and I’m not sure that we could work with him. I know I couldn’t because John and I grew up together and so each of us played with him—and then, and of course, got into all the fights you got into when you’re a little kid and. Jenni is six years older than I am so she just pretty much ignored me when I was a kid.

Jenni Holm: I’m older and wiser.

ReadKiddoRead: You’re like, “Listen to me. This is how we’re going to do this.”

Matt Holm: Once I got out of college, we became friends again and sort of reintroduced ourselves. We were together in New York for a long time, and it can be hard to find friends in New York sometimes, so we started hanging out more. We got along really well and now, it’s, frankly, the easiest thing with working together is the fact that we’re never in the same place so we’re not going to -- it’s not like we’re in an office together getting on each other’s nerves or something.

ReadKiddoRead: Right, right, right.

Matt Holm: This is actually the closest we’ve been in a couple of years now. She’s down in San Francisco and I’m up in Portland so everything is done over the phone, over e-mail, and you deal with your part of the project and then you hand it off and then it’s kind of nice not to have to think about that for a couple of days or weeks until the other person works it over or something.

ReadKiddoRead: Sure.

Jenni Holm: It actually is kind of nice. It sort of takes a lot of the pressure off you.

ReadKiddoRead: Oh, yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Matt Holm: It’s better than sitting there with the page every single day for an entire year and come up with four hundred pages of text or something.

Jenni Holm: Yes.

ReadKiddoRead: And it seems like your strengths really complement each other to make the books the best they can be, so that’s smart. So just a sort of random question, I couldn’t help but notice, was there any influence from Art Spiegelman and Maus?

Jenni Holm: It’s so funny…

ReadKiddoRead: Do you get asked that question a lot?

Jenni Holm: All the time.

ReadKiddoRead: Oh, interesting, okay.

Matt Holm: It had never even occurred to me when we were doing it and it’s only now after everything is done and I’m looking at the -- especially the first couple of ones, I’m thinking, “Oh, right, black and white, little mouse, sure.” I mean, yes, I’ve got the books on my shelf but it totally never even occurred to me.

ReadKiddoRead: Sure, sure.

Matt Holm: It’s so funny.

ReadKiddoRead: Cool. I guess my last question, as you guys tour for these books and actually go out there into the schools and you’re talking with these kids, what is the sense that you’re getting-- what are you getting directly from them in terms of how they feel about books and reading? I mean obviously, they love Babymouse. Do they say, “Oh, I hadn’t read a full book before until I read Babymouse,” or are they really avid readers and asking questions about how to become a writer? What are you experiencing as you’re out on the road and you’re actually interacting with these kids who are loving the book?

Jenni Holm: I think what’s interesting with Babymouse is that it is appealing to such a wide audience, like we get first graders who are early, just starting to read, who read it. But then there are fifth and sixth and seventh graders who read it who get something totally differently out of it. It’s like the Sesame Street effect. As an adult, you watch it and you get all these funny jokes that you don’t really get as a kid. As a kid, you get A, B, the songs and stuff.

But it’s actually kind of written on two levels and I get a lot of that and then I have a lot of kids who come up to me and say that they want to become, they want to write comics when they grow up, that this is what they want to do. They’ll sort of shyly pull out like a five-page stapled comic book for me about something fun. So it’s really nice. It’s really cool. ReadKiddoRead: Well, that’s cool. I mean, encouraging sort of the artistic imagination, I think, is a big part of keeping them excited about books and reading because when they read these books and they are taken into another place, that’s inspirational. I mean, that’s something that will keep them excited about reading but also keep them reaching for their dream.

Jenni Holm: Yes. And kids are really visual these days and I think that’s where the graphic novels really do help. They’re on the computer, they’re playing video games, they’re watching television. They’re very, very visual so they’re used to it more than, say, when I was a kid even. They’re used to really interesting layouts and stuff like that, so they eat them up.

ReadKiddoRead: Right. Fantastic. Well, congratulations, you guys. It’s going to be exciting to see what happens next with Babymouse. I wish you the best of luck and we really thank you for being a part of this. As I said, this is a very big passion for Mr. Patterson so really, it means a lot to him that you guys are involved.

Jenni Holm: Wait, Matt, you have to tell them about the song though. Tell them about the song.

Matt Holm: Yes, we have our original song, “This is Babymouse,” available online.

Jenni Holm: We sing it.

ReadKiddoRead: Oh, that’s awesome.

Matt Holm: Yes, we’re the singers.

ReadKiddoRead: We’ll have to make it available for visitors on ReadKiddoRead.

Jenni Holm: Absolutely.

Matt Holm: That will be great.

ReadKiddoRead: We’ll post it next to this podcast. Well, thanks again, guys. I really, really appreciate your time and congratulations and take care.

Jenni Holm: Thank you so much.

Matt Holm: Thanks for having us.

ReadKiddoRead: Okay, bye-bye.

Matt Holm: Bye-bye.

Jenni Holm: Bye-bye.